ChuckerCanuck 2.0

Shades of Buzz Hargrove backing the Blo last election. Sad really...
 

I think they would like Harper to decare the Liberals, "A nation within a divided Canada," and grant them a guaranteed 200 seats in the House of Commons.
On the other hand this is a change from the libbers who stick their fingers in their bodily orifices and chant Bush, Bush, Bush.
 

The party leader that wants to break up Canada was not challenged even once in a debate about Canada's future.

Nope, in fact Dion consistantly gave Duceppe the nod of approval.
Dion responded immediately to Duceppes concerns voiced during the French debate!!
Conservatives are soooo dangerous for the country that Dion has pledged to immediately make changes to his
2 week old election platform
and fast forward the evil Harpers economic plan.....

Dion pledges to act 'right away' on Tories' $33B infrastructure plan

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ae4ca32e-20d1-4fec-94b7-f8c6bd755bd8
 

Western Canadians are getting mightily flummoxed with voting patterns in Ontario and Quebec.

There's another separation element to this story. And watch it build hugely if Dion and his gang of idiots get into 24 Sussex. It's not just Quebec anymore.
 

soccermom, you are a joke! You speak for "Western Canadians" in your dreams. I am from BC and I don´t vote Liberal but I´d rather see the government go war measures act on your ass then have whiners like you given any credibility.
 

Unforgettable, Chucker, and unforgivable. Where's Joe Green to blather on about traitors now?
 

I dislike Atwood more than Elizabeth May now, and that's saying something!
 

Fuck you, Anonymous! There's more to Western Canada than BC. You dope smoking fiends from BC are all members of the Mary Jane Party, in other words ,supporters of the NDP. If the fucking Libs gain power again, we in Alberta won't wait to see what they might do to our economy. WE already know what they'll do. WE WILL SEPERATE and you and your pot smoking buddies can drown in the Pacific.
FUCK YOU !!
 

Anonymous, did you not make it into the safe injection site yet today? Mosey on down and get your fix. I'm sure you'll feel better after that.
 

And Anonymous, I believe it's the left-leaners in this country who do the most whining.
 

If anyone is wondering where Joe Green is .... check the Liberal War Room.
 

He's the one under the table howling BIG OIL, Bush, neocon, blue-eyes Harper, I'm scared, where's the pizza all the while humming Bye Bye Ms. Amekican Pie...he is not without talent you know.
 

Hmmm...one more reason to ignore Margaret Atwood.
 

Actually, this is the first time ever I should give credit to the old bitch. She made the point that there are 52 other organisms in a Caribou that would die with the host. The 52 organisms in a Caribou are all parasites, just like her artist friends.
 

All we have heard for 2 years is Bush/Bush/Bush, yet it is the liberals following his policies. Didn't Bush cut a cheque for all Americans as a tax rebate, even those who never paid tax. Isn't that what Dion is planning to do. Did he not say a refundable tax credit of 2400. for those that don't pay taxes. Sounds Bushlike to me. Wasn't Dion a separtist at one time, is he just coming home.
 

Anonymous - I also am from BC and soccermom is right. I don't know what area you are from, but where I live, we would be more than willing to get rid of the ROC should the Liberals get back in.
Gordon Campbell and his carbon tax have given us just a small taste of what would happen under a Dion led federal government.
DWT
 

It is no secret that the Liberals and Bloc have been sucking on each other like parasites for decades to further their agendas.

Now that the phony war has faded, the rump left promoting a divided Canada are, lo and behold, those who benefited most from it:

Liberals and Quebec socialists.

The love that dare not speak it's name is now out of the closet!

If it were not so pathetic, it would almost be funny.

Socialists masquerading as separatists in bed with socialists pretending to be patriots!

Both united in their opposition of a govt that has done more to unite the country than any before it!

All in the name of defending "Canadian values, no less!"

You can't make this up, can you?

It should be clear to everyone who loves Canada why the hard left can never be close to the levers of power in this country.

People like Atwood and Hargrove are nothing more than simple mercenaries, willing to undermine their own country if it will further a socialist agenda.

Yes, Albertans need to be very concerned about socialists promising to "save the planet" by centralizing more power in Ottawa.

If you were to remove Harper from those debates last week, was there anything really left to debate? I think we all know which sheep would be slaughtered in the name of "Canadian values."

Welcome to the new phony war.
 

Old Squid, you and Gordon Kessler can go and fuck yourself. Alberta is not going to separate from Canada, no matter how you dumb fucks in Calgary manipulate the Canadian electorate.

I agree with anonymous that you dumb fucks should have the War Measures Act declared against an "apprehended insurrection" and you Republikans from Calgary carted off to jail in Montreal. You are a vicious and traitorous lot of separatists. This is one Amerikan Foreign Policy that is NOT going to work in Canada!

I was born and raised in Alberta, and apart from the Calgary Cowboys, no one in Alberta wants to have any part of a bankrupt Excited States of Marka.

As for Harper, he is so dumb that he still has not figured out that we are entering the Second Great Depression caused by Friemanite ideology and "laisse faire capitalism".

As for Mr. Duceppe, it is ironic that a Quebec Separatist is going to stop the Americanization of Canada by preventing Harper from gaining a majority government in Ottawa. Obviously, Quebec wants no part of the Amerikanization of their Province anymore than Albertans want for our Province.

You will notice that the Liberals have been steadily gaining mostly at the expense of both the Conservatives and the NDP as the reality sinks in that only a Liberal led government is capable of the flexibility needed to lead Canada out of economic mess that the "neocons" created with their insane "deregulation" policies in the US and which is going to wash across the border whether we like it or not.

We have no choice but to abandon FTA and NAFTA and install the required trade barriers to protect real Canadian industries, and to nationalize the oil industries if necessary, and to divert our trade policies away from the US toward hungry markets in Japan and China.

We should begin by sending home the team of Mark Cans that have recently invaded Syncrude and replace them with competent and responsible Canadian citizens so as to make sure that all the "Texas Creativity" in book keeping a la ENRON Accounting, is not allowed back into Canada.

Finally, there are over 250,000 American Republikans mostly in Calgary, that should either obtain legal visas from Canada, or alternatively Go Home.

When they leave, they can take Springer and Ole Squid with them.

Bye Bye Ms. Amerikan Pie!
 

Correcting a spelling error, it should read "Friedmanite ideology".

Friedman advocates "social Darwinism" and the "survival of the fittest" just as long as the "neocons" can first obtain financing from the Amerikan Enterprise Institute where traitors like David Frum work in the service of the Empire.
 

Springer and Ole Squid are "Arthur Anderson" advocates.

So what the fuck were you clowns thinking when you destroyed Canadian FracMaster???? Thousands of Albertans lost their jobs and thousands more small businesses were screwed by a Houston based company that are good friends of Halliburton and Blackwater.
 

Its useful to add up the real costs of the FTA and NAFTA for Canadians. Here are some of them.

1. Softwood Lumber Give Away $4.5B
2. Bank of Canada Injection $20.0B (mostly to benefit American multinationals active in Canada)
3. Alberta Treasury Branch write down $1.2B
4. Writedowns at CIBC, Royal Bank, etc, etc $10.0B??

We would have been far further ahead to have remained with Branch Plants and "sectorized trade" as John Turner had advocated.
 

Anonymous said...
Anonymous - I also am from BC and soccermom is right. I don't know what area you are from, but where I live, we would be more than willing to get rid of the ROC should the Liberals get back in.
Gordon Campbell and his carbon tax have given us just a small taste of what would happen under a Dion led federal government.
DWT


Well, you obviously live in a fucking shithole full of inbreds, because there is no seperatist movement in BC (if the BC Liberals get voted out of power they will be replaced by the NDP, Einstein!)and you Alberta loving hillbillys can move there if you love it so much, you landlocked pieces of shit can wallow in your toxic, polluted, listerosis infested wasteland while the rest of the world find new cleaner alternative fuels. And yeah it really sucks living on the Pacific, its soooo tough to handle, if only we lived on a bleak and monotonous, ridiculously cold interior plain....no wonder you Bertans are always so angry! But at least get it right, BC is the real West(learn how to use a compass, meatskulls), Alberta is the interior flatlands or as they say in the US, the midwest, and you are welcome to seperate, it would do a lot to improve the quality of life and debate in this country.
 

When Quebec gives Bloc another landslide, the Harpercrites will predictably try to blame Liberals, but they should look in the mirror. Its been their divisive way of governing and disdain for democracy which has led to this, they claim that the majority of our MPs should bow before some imaginary minority mandate and they happily exploit the way our FPTP system creates artificial regional blocs and victories based on less than 40% of the vote. If Conservatives cared about our national unity then they would hold a citizens assembly on reforming our electoral system to actually represent the political views of Canadians instead of an outdated Colonial model which accenuates regional divisions.
 

"Waaah, waaaah, waaaah, I´m an Albertan and if everyone doesn´t vote for the party I want, I´m going to seperate from Canada, waaah, waaah, waaaaaaaah!"

I have far more respect for sovereignists in Quebec who look out for their own interests without trying to tell the rest of Canada how to vote.
 

"I have far more respect for sovereignists in Quebec who look out for their own interests without trying to tell the rest of Canada how to vote."

Duceppe has told the rest of canada to vote anything but Conservative.

Duceppe has implicitly endorsed Stephane Dion.

This is as shocking as the reverse endorsement.
 

"If Conservatives cared about our national unity then they would hold a citizens assembly on reforming our electoral system to actually represent the political views of Canadians instead of an outdated Colonial model which accenuates regional divisions."

When we were divided and the left had the field to themselves, I don't recall the left begging for the rules to change. Neither were we.

So why change the rules now? Oh yeah, because you want it your way.
 

Duceppe has told the rest of canada to vote anything but Conservative.

Duceppe has implicitly endorsed Stephane Dion.


Bullshit, now you just sound like Bob Rae, thats nothing but Liberal propaganda. I live in a riding where the Liberals can´t act as anything but the spoiler. There are lots of ridings like that all over the country.

As for Duceppe preferring ABC, well no shit, the Cons have made it clear they will ignore the majority of the MPs in the House if they get another minority, they can´t be surprised that the other parties view them as the dysfunctional force in Parliament.
 

When we were divided and the left had the field to themselves, I don't recall the left begging for the rules to change. Neither were we.

So why change the rules now? Oh yeah, because you want it your way.

Totally incorrect. The NDP have long championed PR at the federal level and Preston Manning was an advocate of democratic reform and said positive things about PR. You were probably voting Liberal back then though and oblivious to conversations about our democracy outside of the sphere of power worshippers.
 

When we were divided and the left had the field to themselves, I don't recall the left begging for the rules to change. Neither were we.

So why change the rules now? Oh yeah, because you want it your way.

Ahhh yes, its all about the "Left" and the "Right", the 60+% of Canadians who get their votes disenfrancised just aren´t part of the equation when we can instead consider the Platonic Political Archtypes. As if a lot of the people who voted for Chretien aren´t now voting for Harper, probably yourself as the previous poster suggests.

The point is that the electoral system makes regional political blocs more successful than broad based political sentiment and is directly responsible for the Blocs disproportionate success in our system. So whine away about Atwood and treachorous Liberals but you support the electoral system which gives the Bloc this much power because it helps your favoured poltical party, so don´t pretend you are any less partisan and more patriotic than Margreat and others.
 

"As for Duceppe preferring ABC, well no shit, the Cons have made it clear they will ignore the majority of the MPs in the House if they get another minority"

A mojority of Quebeckers - for something like half a decade or more now - support two tier health care.

Does Duceppe plan to advocate that position on behalf of Quebeckers?

Does he represent the conflicting views of his supporters?
 

"Totally incorrect. The NDP have long championed PR at the federal level and Preston Manning was an advocate of democratic reform and said positive things about PR. You were probably voting Liberal back then though and oblivious to conversations about our democracy outside of the sphere of power worshippers."

A discussion of PR doesn't bother me at all.

But I admit, I like ridings. If they are supplemented by PR, I think it could be done. But replaced by PR? Never.
 

Note how once Joe shows up the level of debate & discussion drops about 20 points. It's also interesting to note that he supports the arbitrary detention and suspension of Canadians' rights when they don't agree with him politically. Funny, that, given his incessant rambling about the "neo-cons" and their "fascism." Funny, indeed. I guess the Liberal mantra of Canadian values doesn't apply to everybody, according to this particular Liberal supporter.
 

"The point is that the electoral system makes regional political blocs more successful than broad based political sentiment and is directly responsible for the Blocs disproportionate success in our system."

But broad based political sentiment as in PR ignores teh executive component of our elected officials.

We aren't just electing people to share values with, but to execute an agenda.
 

"So whine away about Atwood and treachorous Liberals but you support the electoral system which gives the Bloc this much power because it helps your favoured poltical party, so don´t pretend you are any less partisan and more patriotic than Margreat and others."

I have always advocated and voted federalist over separatist first.

Don't kid yourself about the Bloc or the nature of its support.
 

(please note, its a good conversation, so I'm keeping it up. I'm not particularly riled up by hostility to my point of view, but I do love and cherish a good disagreement.)
 

For the record, I want to say that I haven't read a Joe Green comment in months. SCROLL, BABY, SCROLL!
 

Fair responses CC, I agree a mixed system would be best. I don´t see why an executive agenda couldn´t incorporate a broader agenda and consensus, it does in the majority of democracies which have some form of PR.
 

IMHO, most PR systems including MMP would destroy local representation by creating larger ridings, or getting rid of them entirely.

STV is the way to go, if at all.
 

Well I´ve never liked the way Federalists felt entitled to votes in Quebec, I didn´t like it when it was the Liberals preaching gloom and doom and it isn´t any better now that its the Conservatives.
 

I am going to take rgm to task.

The real political problem in Alberta until recently, have been the corrosive influence on Canadian politics of the largest expatriate group of Americans living outside of the US, in Calgary of all places.

They have dominated Alberta Politics and damaged Federal Canadian Politics with their peculiar form of Republikan influences. Ole Squid and Springer come from that manure pile.

At a federal level, the Reform Abortion that these foreigners created is now as dead as a door nail, and soon even its remnants under Harper will be removed from the political scene in Parliament.

In Alberta, with the unexpected rise to power of Ed Stelmach, you have seen the influence of this group dramatically reduced, much to the relief of REAL Canadians living in Alberta.

The "first past the post system" artificially deepens the political cleavages in our body politic. In the previous federal election, who believes that 28 out of 28 Alberta Conservative seats are supported 100% by the people of Alberta. IN fact, that is not how Alberta's people voted. That is because Alberta's people really wanted to give the Greens two seats, the NDP three seats, the Liberals six seats, and the remaining 17 to the Conservatives.

Likewise in Ontario, who really believes that the people of Ontario gave the Liberals 99 out of 99 seats?

We can install a PR system with only a minor change to the Canada Elections Act. Elizabeth May says that bringing about this change is her first priority, and I agree with her that it should be the first priority of the new Parliament. It is much more important that Parliament actually represent the voters in credible ways rather than what governing parties seek, which is an absolute monopoly over power during their term of office.

Secondly, Harper's "election law" is utterly dangerous. If a party wants to dump its leader, as happened with the Liberals under Chretien, then nothing and no law should impede them. When the PM loses the "confidence" of the House, he is TOAST.

Harper and the Calgary Cowboys from Houston that back him, want to install the same ineffective Congressional system in Canada that currently plagues US citizens in Washington. But that is not going to happen if I have anything to say about it.
 

Green, please tell me which riding in Alberta was close last election. Name one riding where the conservative did not win by several thousand votes over his/her closest competitor, or did not get more votes than all the opposition. There might be some, in Edmonton, but in the rest of the province it is a standing joke if you don't win by over 10,000 votes it has been a close call.
 

I read there are 800,000 americans in Canada who can vote. They do not all live in Calgary or work or own the oil patch.
 

Chucker, you do not have to change anything in terms of the current machinery of elections to achieve PR system in Canada.

I did the numbers for the last election in Alberta. Instead of the 28 seats out of 28 seats for the Conservatives, the popular vote was such that the allocation should have been 2 seats to the Greens, 3 seats to the NDP, 6 seats to the Liberals, and the remaining 17 seats to the Conservatives.

The actual filling of seats by MPs could be done by a simple selection rule. In this example, the 17 Conservatives that won with the greatest plurality of seats are filled first. The next party in line, the Liberals in this example, would then rank the remaining unfilled seats (28 minus 17 = 11 seats) by taking the next six seats where the Liberals scored the highest plurality in rank order. That would then leave five seats, from which the remaining NDP seats would be filled by the three NDP candidates with the highest plurality. The final two seats would go to the Greens, in those remaining ridings.

The above selection rule would prevent all the sort of "lists" that have hurt democracy in Israel and other countries, it would avoid the complexity of the Australian model because this proposal has "no memory", and it would not affect our current practices of by-elections. Finally, it has the almost certain result that the smallest party with seats would almost certainly not automatically include the "leaders" but would enforce a strict order that maximizes the representation of the party of choice by a majority of voters in the order of ridings that had the greatest support. Thus in certain Alberta ridings where the Conservatives polled over 70% of the vote, would be ranked highly and would get their MP ahead of ridings where the Conservatives won by very narrow margins.

If you did the same exercise Canada wide, you would not really get much of a change overall (because the "first past the post system" would favor Conservatives in Alberta, but would be offset by distortions for Liberals in Ontario). However, this proposal would much better reflect the opinion of the people of Canada in Parliament, while at the same time preventing the current "power" in the leadership of political parties from gaining excessive control over any party.

Reducing political cleavages in Canada SHOULD be a priority and a well designed PR system, such as what I propose would dramatically reduce needless political tensions, and it would give other parties a better window into each region of Canada.
 

Maryt, Edmonton Centre was previously held by Anne McLellan who was Paul Martin's deputy Prime Minister. That riding was lost to Laurie Haune in the last election, but the plurality was small, under 2,000 votes if my memory serves me in one of the larger Alberta urban ridings.

Edmonton Millwoods was another, also held previously be a Liberal MP.

In what I propose for PR, these ridings would have remained with the Liberals for two reasons, first of all the small plurality by the Conservative, and secondly by the larger relative strength shown by the Liberals.

Oddly enough, Harper himself won by a fairly small relative plurality well down the list of the "strongest ridings". Strong pluralities SHOULD be one indicator for a cabinet post for the winning MP, since it reflects the "power" granted by his electors. Really smart Premiers and Prime Ministers are not likely to appoint ministers with low pluralities, with other things being equal because these critical ministers could be wiped out in an election, which is what happened to McLellan.
 

maryT said...
"I read there are 800,000 americans in Canada who can vote. They do not all live in Calgary or work or own the oil patch."

Its the largest concentration of Americans living outside the continental US. The figure of 250,000 is most likely on the low side, since my figures are at least ten years old. If anything, this figure has increased over the past ten years.
 

entitlement isn't the word I'd choose, imperative is more like it.

my point, however, is not to strategic vote to win a federalist the riding. it is not to vote for a separatist just to hurt another federalist.

its a little different and oodles more common sensicle.
 

Chucker, people are going to vote overall to stop Harper from gaining a Conservative Majority Government because they desperately wish to avoid "George Bush North". A vote for the Bloc would accomplish this result, even while ignoring the "separatist thingy".

Face it Chucker, if it was not for the "separatist thingy" and Duceppe were to run candidates in other parts of Canada, he would draw a lot of support.

But Canadians are as afraid of the "separatist thingy" as they are of Harper's Friedmanite Ideology.

It is that realization that is bringing back support to Dion's Liberals in the last stretch of this election campaign.

Even for traditional "Progressive Conservatives" holding their nose and voting Liberal is better than handing a blank cheque to Mr. Harper and his Wall Street backers.

Earlier today, the German Government had to bail out the second largest bank in Germany. The Russian Government had to close down its stock exchange, and bail out and backstop its central bank.

A few more of these kind of game changing events, and Mr. Clinton's winning slogan will be back on every TV set in North America.

"Its the Economy, Stupid!"
 

Sounds like some here should have a listen to the video I just posted.

Very informative and relevant.
 

You can't "take rgm to task" if I SCROLL BABY SCROLL!!!
 

Taking your advice and not kidding myself about the Bloc, here's what I can clearly see them to be: an integral part of the Canadian political system, and one which cannot possibly effect the separation of Quebec, no matter how wildly they talk. They pose no threat of any kind to anybody. There's no reason on earth not to vote for them, and if you actually have a reason to vote for them, you should.